The Fortress of Solitude
Jonathan Lethem
Doubleday ($26)

by Eric Lorberer

Holding up Saul Bellow's The Adventures of Augie March as the Great American Novel, Martin Amis praises the book's "fantastic inclusiveness, its pluralism, its qualmless promiscuity. In these pages the highest and the lowest mingle and hobnob in the vast democracy of Bellow's prose. Everything is in here, the crushed and the exalted and all the notches in between."

If those are the qualifications for the category--and if you add the obvious hook that the Great American Novel must assess our peculiar national character, then I think they are--then the same could be said for Jonathan Lethem's glorious new book, The Fortress of Solitude. In setting, it takes us through Brooklyn, Berkeley, Indiana, Vermont, North Carolina, among other places that comprise the country. More importantly, it soars above our streets and stoops, our colleges and communes, our airwaves, our prisons, our lives.

The plot is simple: Dylan and Mingus, the two main characters, grow up. Despite their iconic names they are no mere symbols. Dylan is a white boy in a mostly black Brooklyn neighborhood, and it seems like one of those unpredictable twists of fate that the more extroverted Mingus, son of a semi-famous soul singer, befriends him. Life is full of lessons for young Dylan as he negotiates the social complexities of childhood in an urban environment--

Let me see it: you saw a basketball or a pack of baseball cards or a plastic water gun by taking it into your hands, and what happened after that was in doubt. Ownership depended on mostly not letting anyone see anything. If you let a kid see a bottle of Yoo-Hoo for a minute he'd drink what was left in it.

--and these lessons add up to the person he becomes. Likewise for Mingus, whose power to protect is as intermittent and enigmatic as his graffiti tag "Dose"; and for Arthur Lomb, with whom Dylan is "doomed to friendship"; and for Robert Woolfolk, the recurring antagonist in Dylan's personal drama; and the list goes on. Lethem has rendered all his characters, and their seemingly fated trajectories, with the messy, incontrovertible reality of life.

The book's structure is likewise exquisite: The Fortress of Solitude is an elaborate off-kilter diptych held together by a finely-wrought hinge. The first (and longest) section of the book, "Underberg," chronicles the boys' youth in their corner of Brooklyn--itself in the beginning throes of a transition from "Gowanus" to the tonier "Boerum Hill"--during the '70s. Here, the world (and all its nuances--Lethem excels at drawing out the texture of the decade, saturating his prose in a warm bath of pop-culture particulars) is viewed from a mythical, authoritative remove. This omniscient point-of-view is delightfully in keeping with the magical realist touch of having Dylan and Mingus discover that the power of flight--that core comic book fantasy--is real: "The elongated rectangular grid of these streets, these rows of narrow houses, seen from above, at dusk in late October: imagine the perspective of a flying man. What sense would he make of the figures below . . . Is this a mugging? Should he swoop down, intervene?"

After the text-warping fulcrum of the 10-page "Liner Note," the second part of the novel, "Prisonaires," catapults us into the '90s and shifts to the first person--letting Dylan tell the tale that was always, at heart, his own. It also gives Lethem free reign to dig into the meat of his American epic. For this is largely a novel about race, and although Dylan and Mingus had plenty of opportunities both to confirm and cross the barriers between black and white, the older Dylan can give more reasoned expression to the issue:

The word throbbed between us, permitting no reply from me. I could visualize it in cartoonish or graffiti-style font, glowing with garish decorations, lightning, stars, halos. . . . Though it had been more than once around the block of our relationship, nigger was that rarity, an anti-entropic agent, self-renewing. The deep ugliness in the word always sat up alert again when it was needed.

The section also smartly invokes the increasingly gargantuan pink elephant of American incarceration, from Dylan's proposed screenplay about "the Prisonaires" (an incarcerated singing group) to his gripping account of visiting his old friend in the stir: "We were being transformed into inmates, I began to understand, as our reward for asking to go inside."

Lethem's America is one that contains multitudes: it is only a long day's ride in a rental car that takes Dylan from the bowels of a correctional facility to a utopian, Richard Brautigan-flavored farm; only a commuter flight that takes him from a harrowing argument with his girlfriend to a hilarious Hollywood pitch meeting. And there is so much more--experimental film, motherless sons, drugs and guns, a science-fiction convention, power, sacrifice, the relentless turning of the karmic wheel. Yet perhaps ultimately The Fortress of Solitude is a novel about the complicated nature of friendship:

Dylan Ebdus's friendship with Mingus Rude lived in brief windows of time, punctuation to the unspoken sentences of their days. . . . There was nothing to do but pick up where they'd left off, pool what they still had in common. What was new in the other you pretended to take for granted, a bargain instinctively struck to ensure your own coping on the other end.

XTC sang: "Deep in your fortress of solitude, don't mean to be rude, but I don't feel super." Jonathan Lethem has exploded the sentiment into a gorgeous novel of epic sweep, replete with loss and vision--a truly great Great American Novel.

Michel Houellebecq
Translated by Frank Wynne
Knopf ($25)

by Joel Turnipseed

If the pure product of America is insanity, what have we gotten from the French—le petite mort and the bitter rant? Michel Houllebecq has again combined the two in Platform, his follow-up to 2000's import, The Elementary Particles. The story starts with the death of a man's father and ends with his premeditation on his own, lonely, death. This long shadow of mortality draws the span in which our narrator—also called Michel—discovers that his own life hasn't meant all that much anyway: American television and insipid game shows, cheap porn, pre-packaged everything—from style to tourism, and a civil service job administering art that consists mostly of clichés best equipped to consume themselves. Sex is granted only to the shallow hip and the vainly beautiful (of which Michel is neither) and love—well, who knows where that goes? As our bodies droop and our memory fogs, it gets harder and harder to say. Things aren't much better outside, with racial violence seething in the streets and religious violence spreading across the globe. Houellebecq's brilliance is to package what could easily fall into an intellectually dense meditation as a scabrously funny love story, though one that shows itself in the end as tragedy.

What is immediately striking—and great—about Houllebecq's book is that he has dared to write, in the face of the smugly disapproving, self-satisfied chattering classes, a book from the asshole section (of whatever: airplane, summer camp, weekend conference). If you sit in the asshole section (and it's hard to avoid when you're trying to avoid the high sanctimony of the nice people), you will laugh your ass off. For all the uproar caused by The Elementary Particles and "le affair Houellebecq" that accompanied its publication, Platform seems written at times to take things a step further—to say, in the wake of continuing opprobrium following his scandalous fame, "Fuck you." It's been a long time since a writer this talented was this brave.

At times, however, you wonder if it's real courage or just an idiot's willingness to speak unpleasant truths. Houellebecq was taken to trial in France over Platform and the interviews he gave in support of it, on charges of "inciting racial hatred." Even though he won the case, there are still echoes of the outcry over Houellebecq's hostility toward Islam. Reading the book, it's hard to say which he hates more: the monotheistic religion or those Muslims who insist on humanity's shared worst-impulses of ignorance and repression, and who, further, arm their rage with Molotov cocktails, kalashnikovs, and explosive belts. Houellebecq's book takes a long time to turn from comedy to tragedy, but it does so in a single moment: when Michel's single dream explodes into pink mist with the gunfire of Muslim terrorists at a Thai resort. Platform was published in France before 9/11, and that should help us realize that radical Islamic terrorism (from which the body count has been ticking since the sixties in Europe) is not new just because we in America are its latest and most spectacularly stricken victims. For those of us who were especially shocked by the more anxious moments of self-flagellation and blame following the destruction of the World Trade Center, Houllebecq seems like a savage prophet, presciently mocking Libération for finding the blame squarely with the terrorist's victims and Paris-Match for commercializing it with gory color photos above the fold. In a coincidence that might have made even Stockhausen blush, Islamic terrorists blew up a club in Bali just as Houellebecq's trial came to a close—this is not a writer afraid of playing with fire.

Still, Platform's anti-Islamic moments aren't pretty—not the least for coming across as forced confessions: the two longest cries against Islam are mouthpiece bits by a walk-on Egyptian and Jordanian, respectively. The most disturbing words from Michel come immediately after his tragic loss:

It is certainly possible to remain alive animated simply by a desire for vengeance; many people have lived that way. Islam had wrecked my life, and Islam was certainly something I could hate. In the days that followed, I devoted myself to trying to feel hatred for Muslims. I became quite good at it, and I started to follow the international news again. Every time I heard that a Palestinian terrorist, or a Palestinian child or a pregnant Palestinian woman, had been gunned down in the Gaza Strip, I felt a quiver of enthusiasm at the thought of one less Muslim in the world.

It's easy, reading these passages, to be saddened and disgusted. If despair is the deepest sin, Michel is committing it in spades here—and without hope, it's no surprise there's not a drip of charity for the million Palestinians inhabiting the prison/rubble of Jenin. But it's not the writer's job to cheer us with homilies or to chide us—it is to show us another consciousness (ours, even—more truly); to share in a solitary voice what it is like to be most deeply human. If Michel's despair seems wicked to us, it is undeniably real—and it is not reserved for the Muslims. His near-dying words from his exile in Thailand are reserved for Europe, surrogate for the West:

To the end, I will remain a child of Europe, of worry and shame. I have no message of hope to deliver. For the west, I do not feel hatred. At most I feel a great contempt. I know only that every single one of us reeks of selfishness, masochism, and death. We have created a system in which it has simply become impossible to live, and what's more, we continue to export it.

In all of this lay the foundation for the "platform" of the book's title: sex tourism as the cure to the ills of the World, First and Third. God is dead and his century-long replacement, Communism, is equally defunct. And if there just isn't any basis for hope outside our everyday pains and infrequent pleasures? Houllebecq trots out a former hero of the Cuban revolution to lament on his people,

The poor people of Cuba.... They've nothing left to sell except their bodies.

Meanwhile, Michel is in the country on business, accompanying his girlfriend and her fellow executive on a tour of their resorts in a struggle to make them profitable. After hearing the old revolutionary, he thinks:

What could possibly incite human beings to undertake tedious, tiresome tasks? This seemed to me the only political question worth posing. The old factory worker's evidence was damning: in his opinion, the only answer was the need for money; in any case, the revolution had obviously failed to create a new man, one driven by more altruistic motives. . . . the system had failed, no one was fooled any longer, no one was sustained anymore by the hope of one day rejoicing in communal labor. The result was that nothing functioned, no one worked or produced the slightest thing any longer, and Cuban society had become incapable of ensuring the survival of its own members.

This is a drop-dead post-mortem on the communist dream, but when Houllebecq's man utters the solution, you feel like maybe you've been sitting at the bar all night with a guy who's maybe a little bit more of a crank than you figured. Or a lotta bit:

Offer a club where the people get to fuck.

Moments like these make me think of Houllebecq as an Anti-Dave Eggers. If it hadn't been written first, you might be tempted to read Platform as a straightforward satire of You Shall Know Our Velocity, the equally preposterous world-savior novel of last summer. Where the two heroes of Velocity spent way too many pages extolling the virtues of a round-the-world trip handing money out to the needy; our Michel has decided that it would just be best for all of us if we banged them—especially since they give such good massages afterward. The preposterousness doesn't end there, however, since Michel's girlfriend is herself a sexual athlete of the highest order and a well-paid executive to boot, and she just loves to arrange a threesome with the nearest hot babe on the train. It's not that the sex scenes aren't well-written—they are as good for a hard-on as anything you'll find in Penthouse Forum—it's just that they're more appropriate to the innocence of the engineering dorm room fantasy than to serious imaginative literature.

Frankly, there just isn't that much platform in Platform, and that's a good thing. Michel—and at times the book fails the distinction between author and protagonist—presents us with one of the most disturbing consciences of our times, so bleakly honest he comes across as deadpan funny: he's an arts administrator who doesn't care two shits about Art, has no permanent attachments to any one or any idea, is a self-confessed crank and pervert, and can remember his own life just slightly better than the last novel he's read. And this guy, barely able to light his cigarette from the right end, who quotes Comte then masturbates into John Grisham novels, is going to proposition the happiness of the human race? Somehow, the answer hovers around "yes"—but not with the straightforwardly silly platform essayed in the book.

For all the comparisons to Camus and Celine, the recurring impression I have after reading his last two books (his first, Whatever, provoked an eponymous reaction) is that Houellebecq is heir to an older tradition, that of the Cynics—best exemplified by Diogenes of Sinope. Diogenes considered himself an heir to Socrates—an honest questioner of everything cherished in the City; a man who held up in his behavior a mirror to everything that was false; who spoke a true tongue to all the lies and unspoken cruelty in our daily talk. In one of his most famous acts, Diogenes—often called the Dog—was asked to bark for the hosts of a dinner he was attending. His biographer put his reply to this bitter insult subtly, by saying he raised his toga and "turned a dogs trick" on them. Given the famously outrageous antics of Houellebecq (and his wife, who once posed nude for a photo-op), one wonders just how consciously Michel is indebted. For those who cherish Houellebecq as a satirist and not a Cynic, note that there is an interesting inversion at work in Platform: where in Greek times the Satyr play always came after the three-play tragic cycle at festival, undoing the spell of horror, Houellebecq satirizes throughout—only to conclude with his tragedy. If you were looking to upend the literary world, that would be getting to the root of things.

Platform is an important book, speaking necessary things to the self-satisfied; to an age which seems some days to have no ideas worth living for, except, well, living itself—which, in the end, may be Houellebecq's point: we've become so caught up in our anxious pieties and unspeaking shame that we simply no longer know how live—and to share the pleasures of life with each other. But doesn't this lack imagination? In the end, this is the one simple criticism of such a wild and sophisticated book: the simple naiveté of its sexuality and the larger one of its moral vision. But even there, I suspect, Houellebecq is waiting for us, ready to turn his own trick. Even—especially—on the assholes.

Click here to purchase this book at your local independent bookstore

Rain Taxi Online Edition, Fall 2003 | © Rain Taxi, Inc. 2003

The Silver Gryphon
Edited by Gary Turner and Marty Halpern
Golden Gryphon Press ($27.95)

Angel Body And Other Magic for the Soul
Edited by Chris Reed and David Memmott
Back Brain Recluse / Wordcraft of Oregon ($16.95)

by Alan DeNiro

Recently there has been a bumper crop of strong original anthologies (that is, with no or few reprints) that have incorporated genre elements into their contents. Some of these have come from relatively surprising sources, such as Conjunctions or McSweeney's, indicating that something of a sea change is afoot. Perhaps it's the permeability of blockbuster sci-fi film into the popular lexicon. Or it could be that the reality of our everyday lives has increasingly seemed like science fiction—and not of the Jetsons, gee-whiz variety, but rather the paranoid, malcontent societies envisioned by Philip K. Dick and J. G. Ballard. This is less the result of technological innovation per se and more the product of an open-ended mood, unassailable by logic.

So how are contemporary genre venues handling this newfound interest in their materials? Is it business as usual, or a chance to cross-fertilize with other forms of literature? Two new anthologies, each from small independent publishers, seem to be tackling this blurred genre from different corners of the speculative fiction field, but both subtly point towards repositioning the small presses as a crux of the genre. Indeed, speculative fiction small presses have been able to pick up the load where the larger presses have, to a large degree, sloughed off—particularly in the realm of short fiction.

The Silver Gryphon is a superb example of this. It has one story by each of the authors that Golden Gryphon Press has published previously. There is significant symmetry here in that this is the press's 25th book, a milestone worth celebrating in this publishing climate. Golden Gryphon's authors come from a slew of different perspectives, and this volume demonstrates how such an invigorating range can contribute to the tenor of a well-made anthology. But because the writers within tend to be cognizant of a tradition with certain parameters, however loose they may be, it also shows how various fictions are coded to draw in different audiences, which may or may not work against the grain of each other.

Take the Joe Lansdale story "Fire Dog" that closes out The Silver Gryphon. Lansdale is most noted as a horror writer, so we may expect his story to be "horrific"—and horrific it is, with a conclusion that is as inevitable as Greek tragedy but no less compelling because of that. But put this story on a typewritten sheet of paper with no name, and the reading experience might be vastly different; the story could have easily fit into an avant-garde literary magazine, with its whiplash metafictional premise that would have made Barthelme proud:

The suit fit perfectly, though Jim did feel a bit exposed. Still, he had to admit there was something refreshing about the exposure. He wore the suit into the break room, following the Chief.
Rex, the current firedog, was sprawled on the couch watching a cop show. His suit looked worn, even a bit smoke stained. He was tired around the eyes. His jowls drooped.
"This is our new fire dog," the Chief said.
Rex turned and looked at Jim, said, "I'm not out the door, already you got a guy in the suit?"

The Silver Gryphon makes a compelling case, then, for the exciting interstices at the center of the field. It begins with three juggernauts: James Patrick Kelly's "Mother" depicts an amazingly rendered future world involving aliens and an interstate cycling ride, bleak and tender at the same time; Jeffrey Ford's "Present from the Past" orbits a little closer to home, with its deft portrayal of a mother's death and the New Jersey landscape her family inhabits; and "The Door Gunner" by Michael Bishop is a sweeping story of Vietnam, in which a dead private keeps fighting—which in lesser hands might lead to the worst kind of retro zombie movie excesses, but "The Door Gunner" is more in the tradition of The Things They Carried than Dawn of the Dead. This opening triumvirate creates a powerful meditation on death and family, and exhibits how skillful use of genre tropes can create visionary literature.

There are other wonderful stories here as well. Paul DiFillippo's nutty, yet scientifically grounded, "What's Up Tiger Lily?" pushes all the right storytelling buttons, doing everything Joshua Ortega's much-hyped Frequencies tried to do (but in the end couldn't) in a fraction of the space. Warren Rochelle's "The Golden Boy," though understated on the surface, is arguably the weirdest story in the collection; it slowly unveils a cauldron of alternate history in which fairy folk are rounded up into camps and North America is controlled by an oppressive monarchy. The story is sometimes dulcet, sometimes deeply unsettling, but always striking; interestingly it's the ordinary scenes, such as the adolescent protagonist going to the zoo with his class, that are the most affecting (though there aren't lions and tigers in the cages, but werewolves).

Also quite notable is "After Ildiko" by Lucius Shepard. In some ways, the story mines familiar territory for the author, including the menacing, grungy Central American landscape acting as a reference point for the characters' inner lives. But Shepard is one of the finest prose stylists around, and manages in a relatively short space to create a devastating portrait of a foolish American traveler decidedly out of his element; there is a creeping inexorability to the plot that readers of Patricia Highsmith would appreciate. At the other end of the spectrum, the anthology has a few pieces that, while not exactly light, certainly invoke the pleasures of action/adventure—though even these have off-kilter subtleties that belie their pulp roots. For example, R. Garcia Y Robertson—arguably the best, most literate writer of adventure fiction working today—adds the wonderful "Far Barbary" to his mélange of stories; set in Central Asia during a fierce medieval war, its elements of pure fantasia (a city floating on a lake, airships) are balanced with a healthy dose of political realism.

Not quite everything works in The Silver Gryphon; there are a few merely competent stories that are paint-by-numbers science fiction, and the stories are all over the map. But its very eclecticism, without making the whole project feel slapdash, proves to be a huge asset. Solidly in the "radical center" of the field, the anthology would work well as a small window, especially for non-genre readers, into the here-and-now of science fiction and fantasy. The very fact that bracing anthologies like this are seldom put out by larger genre publishers speaks to the fact that presses like Golden Gryphon are fulfilling a dramatic need in the marketplace.

This is also true for the amazing Angel Body. Most of the stories herein have a quiet edginess to them, working against the sweetness implicit in the title. Originally published in the United Kingdom as an issue of the experimental small press magazine Back Brain Recluse, this anthology showcases writers who have previously published with the small press Wordcraft of Oregon. There is a more focused tonal argument at work here, even if the authors in Angel Body overall are less well known than their counterparts in The Silver Gryphon, and the stories play off each other in more pronounced (albeit still oblique) ways. For example, Lance Olsen's "Moving" is a stunning, understated story of a couple who slowly disengage with nearly all of their material possessions and interest in the world at large. The story hovers on the boundary between satirizing and lionizing their choices. Immediately following "Moving" is the gorgeously Borgesian "Lupe Varga, Deceased," by Brian Evenson, which begins with this doozy:

When they found the artist Georges Pont-du-Lyon Traba's body on the main street of the capital, it had been penetrated by hundreds of miniature arrows. The fletching of each arrow consisted of a small white scrap of paper with writing on it, similar to the piece of paper found in a Chinese fortune cookie. . . . They removed all 2,761 arrows and read the notes attached to them. All were identical, reading:
You shall take a trip to the Orient
It was a false fortune, however, for Traba was dead.

Metaphysical strangeness of the highest order ensues. Another strong entry is "The Man Who Adopted Dead Children" by Conger Beasley, Jr.—the title itself is like a one-line story. Dealing with an isolated South Carolinian bachelor who fulfills an unexplained inner need by visiting morgues and bringing the embalmed bodies of hundreds children to his estate, the story mines the same territory as Gogol's Dead Souls; the portrait of the protagonist isn't exactly sympathetic, but we see him as more of a child of his battered, post-Reconstruction world.

There are many other stories in Angel Body that swing for the fences (and more often than not, hit the ball out of the park). Tom Whalen's "Concerning the Vampire" not only makes a contemporary story about a vampire actually interesting (no small feat!), but creates a moving portrait of a vampire who is pretty much a big dork, proud of the way he slices his tomatoes and corrects a professor about philosophy. "Frida Kahlo, Pierced by Time," by Lorraine Schein, has a fairly self-explanatory title at first glance, but the "H.G. Wells on acid" plot twists are anything but predictable. And "Burrito Meltdown" by Ernest Hogan is a story involving extra-terrestrials, human sacrifice, and a mysterious, viral substance known as Crossover Salsa. Although at first glance the narrative seems goofy, underneath the zaniness is a fierce exploration of ethnicity, mythology, and conspiracy theories. The language takes on a fiery, transformative bent:

Soon the Chevy was sliding down a beam of light from a pyramid-shaped UFO. The wheels touched down on the Beltway at sixty miles per hour. The melting burritos glowed.

Angel Body is further proof that Wordcraft of Oregon is one of the more underrated presses not only of science fiction, but of literature in general. Its own merits aside, the book provides a fine sampling of Wordcraft's authors, who are well worth investigating on their own—for example, Misha Nogha's Red Spider White Web is arguably the definitive feminist cyberpunk text, a searing work that crashes upon the reader like a catastrophe, not unlike many of the stories in this anthology. (Nogha also contributes an excellent piece of flash fiction to Angel Body, "The Carnelian Cat").

Each of these anthologies represent speculative fiction at its unapologetic best, utilizing a broad palette of fictional techniques; together, they are a crucial testament that this field is anything but fallow. Considering that change is ever coming (changing economics, demographics, reading sensibilities), the questions remain: How do those in the speculative fiction field perceive the increasing amorphousness of the field itself? Is it a threat or an opportunity? A call to arms to protect the confines of the genre, or a chance to meander in the messy scrublands in between? These questions have no easy answers. But these anthologies, in their own ways, are at least posing the questions, which is harder than it sounds.

Click here to purchase The Silver Gryphon at your local independent bookstore

Rain Taxi Online Edition, Fall 2003 | © Rain Taxi, Inc. 2003

by Chris McCreary

Craig Watson's "Statement," published in The L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E Book, addresses how he was initially attracted to Language writing because he felt a "camaraderie of others similarly set adrift" in search of means of writing challenging work, yet soon found himself "processing through an increasingly narrow channel of thought" in "an environment controlled more by theory and imposed regulations than one open to all the motivations of a self-oriented process." He goes on to establish his search for "a poetics that actively conditions my self / environment and serves as a tuning process and a means of mediating personal experience. Obviously, such an internalized approach disavows allegiance to any code of poetic behavior and repudiates any cultural standards."

This lack of affiliation with any poetic school, as well as his absence from poetry scenes such as New York's or the Bay Area's, may help to explain why work of his caliber is not more widely anthologized or written about by critics.

Watson is the author of several books, including Free Will, After Calculus, and Drawing a Blank, which was the first title from Philadelphia's Singing Horse Press. The poems in Watson's latest book, True News, unfold in sequences that explore age-old conflicts—self vs. society, mind vs. body—with a particular emphasis on the cognitive processes that attempt to create meaning from these chaotic struggles. I interviewed Watson about these recurring dynamics over the course of the winter as we both wrangled with our various "real-life" responsibilities.

Chris McCreary: I became aware of your work through books that were published by poet-editors—Gil Ott, Rosmarie and Keith Waldrop, Elizabeth Robinson. What sort of poetic community do you inhabit these days? And how does living away from centers of activity such as New York City impact your writing life?

Craig Watson: First, I'm interested that your initial questions revolve around the search for a sense of place, physical and spiritual, in the world, which has always been a complex and perhaps defining issue for me. I left college after two years because it didn't offer experiences and learning opportunities that felt relevant to what I considered the "real" world and the urgencies of that world-in-time (ca. 1970). I've felt my way along since then, in a variety of jobs and social roles ranging from theater technician to corporate executive, though I have yet to identify anything I'd call a "career."

Though poetry has been a constant engagement in my life for nearly 40 years, it's maintained this centrality in part by its ability to sustain a space relatively independent of life-demands and social context. In other words, I've created and inhabited a paradox in which not having to rely on poetry as a principal identity marker has made it possible to keep poetry in a vital, primary personal space.

In terms of immediate community, I certainly participate in and benefit from the wonderful and flexible community of writers and artists in Rhode Island, though many of my long-term associations are more virtual than proximate. Poets with whom I have long relationships, such as Ted Pearson and Michael Gizzi, are physically dispersed but central to my sense of "home" community.

CM: Another way that poets tend to form communities is via academia, but from what I've learned that's not a route of your travels. A couple of your jobs especially interest me. How does your involvement with theater influence your thinking about issues like audience or performance? I know that "grammelot," for instance, directly addresses both of these issues.

CW: Having spent much of my working life in and around the theater, the practices and aesthetics of that institution has naturally affected my writing. Early on, I began to think about the poem as a performance—an act in framed space and dynamic time—and developed a concept of "page as stage" in poems for many years; After Calculus and Picture of the Picture of the Image in the Glass, among other works, explore this metaphor as a formal device, and later, more serial poems take for granted a certain performative context.

"Grammelot" was written when I was working as a literary manager for a regional theater and was thinking a lot about dramatic literary theory and dramaturgy. As much as theater, however, "Grammelot" for me asks questions about the nature of narrative and story, an interrogation which continued in more specific terms in the "Geographies" series in True News.

CM: I'm also interested in your work in a corporate environment and as a strategic consultant. In what ways does that sort of experience overlap with writing poetry? Do you find yourself using those experiences as source material, or is it more compartmentalized from creative life?

CW: I joined a technology corporation in 1985 as a technical writer both to make some money and to find out what it would be like to write full-time for a living. During the next 11 years, I became head of marketing, then public relations and finally strategic and business planning. For several years I was the principal corporate spokesperson and traveled extensively. Like any self-contained environment, corporate life has its own discourse with which it manages, directs and controls behavior through language. The opening poem of Free Will, "Persuasion and Judgment," draws from this discourse, most specifically that of corporate spokesman.

Of course, all poetry originates from and is sited in relation to particular social discourses. I remember always being puzzled as a child when someone told me to "put it in my own words" as if I either owned the language or could make one up. To my mind, the greatest literary revolution in the last century was to free poetry from "the poetic," that is, from a self-defined, tightly bordered, often sentimental discourse to an activity undertaken in and with multiple, even conflicting language contexts. Again, my emphasis is on "activity" rather than "result," another dimension of the performative.

CM: Having read three books of yours now that span almost 15 years, I've noticed how your work has shifted from the relatively spare After Calculus to denser forms of text. Could you talk a bit about the evolution of your work?

CW: The most simple, and by no means glib, answer I can provide is that the work has a "mind" of its own. Or as I once heard Creeley say: "Not what I think to say, but what my thinking says..." In any case, the seeming shift between most of my work in the '80s (and before) and the '90s is less the result of willful, formal alterations than it is of shifting contexts in life and perception and the aperture of possibilities those shifts opened. This shift is not, in my mind, quite as dramatic as it might at first appear; my thoughts about form and presentation have not changed so much as evolved into more complex organisms.

In general, I'm attracted by what I call a synaptic model of cognition in which thinking (as well as perceiving, feeling, choosing, etc.) occurs in "the gaps" between elements; the human nervous system, including the brain, operates through the transfer of chemicals and electrical charges between cells, and it's in this "negative space" that perception and response is enacted. Another way of thinking about these perceptual phenomena is the poem as constellation, first suggested by the Swiss poet Eugen Gomringer. Constellations work by what cognitive scientists called the principal of "subjective contours" which is simply the human tendency to see patterns and shapes in the object of the gaze. We make constellations by filling in the gaps.

Most of my work from 1970 through 1990 explored this cognitive model in fairly explicit terms; I was interested in trying to create a series of synaptic leaps between elements—words and fragments—on the page as a way to open a primary ground of language experience. Simultaneously, I was extremely interested in the architecture of absence; both my long-term appreciation and study of sculpture, and its notion of negative space, as well as my personal circumstances which included an unpleasant divorce and the need to restart large portions of my life, tended to focus my writing on various ideas about loss, emptiness and shape.

In 1990 I began a new work which I intended to be a long poem and which took five years to write. This work, called Reason and published by Zasterle in 1998, marked a shift in my use of space as well as the adoption of a mixed prose and broken-line format. While the book is still serial and constellar in the sense that each page is a separate fragment of the whole, I realized I didn't have to be quite so literal in the management of space. My sense of space become more syntactical, and my means of establishing tension and choreographing movement are more invested in the texts than in the page as a physical field.

The poems in Free Will and True News expand the range of formal possibilities within the paradigms to which I'm attracted. Obviously, I'm still very invested in the use of space on the page; in "Persuasion and Judgment" for instance, the spaces separating the fragments and utterances get progressively shorter, indicating a speeding up of the discourse as the poem goes on. Similarly, "Talk Drum" alternates between extremely long (longer than a breath can endure) lines and short vertical forms. Though it's certainly easier to remove single pages from their sequences, all the works are intended to be serial and contribute to a larger gesture. The primary impulse between the recent poems, and those of 20 years ago, has not really changed, though the way I experience and represent space has been a source of renewable interrogation for me.

CM: While your work addresses the sorts of cognitive processes you've just described, there's also a real awareness of the body's physical presence. Maybe this is the space where the individual consciousness rubs up against its surroundings—where "Identity meets desire," as you write in "grammelot," or "Hunger forms flesh," as you say in "2/15 of a Second." But the imagery of bodies alone or coming together—in "Future Self," for example, where you have lines like "clusters / of mouths on mouths on mouths"—reminds me more of Beckett's sense of the body being somewhat futile, as opposed to Whitman's celebration of the flesh. What's your take on the connection between our mental activities and the bodies that encase our brains and demand our attention and maintenance?

CW: The bifurcation of body and mind is a fundamental pillar of western civilization and sets the stage for all the other modes of duality in which we are conditioned to think and behave. The "problem of the body" is exactly that of mind and world, perception and culture, representation and presence. To date, my poem "Reason" wrestles with this knot most directly, though you're right that the fundamental question remains present throughout all the work and is never "solved," which is a statement in its own right, that is, unsolvable.

It's also interesting that you raise Beckett at this point; he's been an important source and inspiration for me and my views of many things, literary and not, have found or been given dimension in his extraordinary body of work. A sequence that I wrote mostly in the mid-'90s but which hasn't appeared in any book yet is in part a meditation on a life-time of reading and thinking about Beckett and, by extension, this question of mind/body dialectic. The poem is called "First Breath Last" and here's a fragment from it:

Blood cleans the wound
But brain insists that body die.

Involuntary muscle fits own immovable space
Pregnant skeleton in eggshell crypt.

I don't think Beckett represents the body as "futile" so much as paradoxically useless and utterly necessary. Within this dilemma, I think he was also addressing the problem of representation and metaphor as ways of signifying meaning. He was, to my mind, continually immersed in the conflict of address in writing, which is why he gradually erased physical characteristics from his fictions and plays, resulting at times in just a disembodied voice (as in the novel The Unnameable) or even simply a sound representing an action (as in the play Breath). For me, the man's work is inexhaustible (all puns intended, of course).

CM: While the idea of the poet-observer recurs in your work, I don't want to make it sound like the poems are limited in scope to personal, localized experience. There's certainly a focus on societal interactions, too, and these passages often strike me as alternately deadpan in their black humor and mythic in their archetypal struggles. I see this in True News especially, and an obvious example occurs in "Figure J" of "Home Guard": "After the stoning we exhumed the adulterer as wave after wave of charity / wafted over the audience." I'm wondering if you have Bataille in mind at all and his concepts of sacrifice as being essential for sustaining society. Either way, do you see your take on society as cynical or simply realistic?

CW: It's certainly true that I can't disassemble my "self" or, more importantly, the act of writing, into a single, unified idea, whether that idea is participant or observer. This tautology is central to all my work, and my life, and is probably most completely explored in Picture of the Picture of the Image in the Glass which, as the title suggests, goes to some length in its interrogation of the notion of the perceived, the real and the subjective apparatus connecting the two. Most perceptual acts, and therefore responses, are contextual, just as most are schematic or preprogrammed by expectation and conditioning. Though one can unravel these conditions to seeming extremes, I find most value in exploring that contextual resonance which seems to exist a couple of layers under the apparent fact of things. This is both a literary and survival device—the extent to which we swim in a sea of lies (culturally, politically, etc.) and are subject to believe in a unified, singular self means that one's perceptual lens is nearly always clouded by noise from a variety of sources. Writing is a way of sorting out and reframing much of this activity, just as art in general tends to be a means for focusing the various perceptual and cognitive paradigms that define a culture.

While I've read some Bataille, and doubtlessly assumed some of his thinking, he's not been a major influence in the past. The line you quote, for me, has more to do with the hypocrisy of many social acts, including the propensity to forgive ourselves for horrors committed after the fact. While I'm often told that my world view, and particularly my humor, is cynical and sardonic, it's not by choice so much as expressive. For better or worse, that's my experience of the world.

And since I've mentioned "Home Guard," could you talk a bit about its organizing principle? I think it's a great piece—densely philosophical, yet visceral at the same time. Each section is labeled (or, more accurately, assigned a letter) as if they're legends to pictures, or maps, or some other sort of visual. Is there actually a set of images that you have in mind? And why are some lettered sections ("Figure A," "Figure D," etc.) seemingly missing from the sequence?

"Home Guard" was composed in the six months following the events of September 11, 2001, not so much as a response to those events but as a response to what seemed to be the broader cultural response to those events. For example, one wide-spread response to September 11 was to divorce the attacks from any global or historical context, especially the economic practices of American imperialism during the preceding decade. Another consequence of that day was the way it seemed to license and empower the media as a nationalistic and reactionary force; I remember Tom Brokaw exclaiming that this was "an act of war" even before the politicians. Prior to then, I'd been thinking that the last piece in True News would be interrogate themes of home, paradise and utopia as an extension of the geography poems that constitute the center of the book. So much of the groundwork had been laid; it happened that "home" turned out to be the battleground of global conflict and ideologies in a more literal way that I'd imagined. The form evolved as captions to missing or unimaginable pictures, and the missing "figures" might suggest that those entire "records" are lost as well. And it is this process of loss—whether by extermination of diverse species or by subjugation of and hegemony over diverse cultures—that is the true terror of our time.

Rain Taxi Online Edition, Fall 2003 | © Rain Taxi, Inc. 2003

by Trey Strecker

Joseph McElroy is the author of eight novels: A Smuggler's Bible, Hind's Kidnap, Ancient History, Lookout Cartridge, Plus, Women and Men, The Letter Left to Me, and Actress in the House. In contrast to the pessimism and cynicism of much postmodern art, McElroy's novels exhibit a serious passion to understand how others perceive the world. Each book begins with "the breakdown of knowing"—the endpoint for many postmodern novels—but a "Joseph McElroy novel" never ends there. His novels, often intricate networks of characters and events, masterfully engage the ability of human consciousness to structure its experience. "Writing is how I think," McElroy explains. "What I do every morning into the mid-afternoon. Failure. Building. Embrace."

McElroy's new novel Actress in the House negotiates the complex interaction of love and abuse, memory, and action. The novel opens when an attorney witnesses an actress at a warehouse theater violently slapped during a performance; as the actress is hit, she catches the lawyer's attention. From this initial event, McElroy explores the "joint venture" between actress and audience. From the intersection of these two lives, this "plunge into another person," McElroy crafts a prismatic narrative that delves into each characters' individual (perhaps linked) past. The Overlook Press, which publishes Actress, is also reissuing out-of-print McElroy classics like A Smuggler's Bible and Lookout Cartridge.

Trey Strecker: Your novels are remarkably spatial—the reader experiences first-hand connective networks, cognitive processes, neural neighborhoods, as you call them in the title of one of your early essays.

Joseph McElroy: I'm glad you say "first-hand." And spatial, I guess so: sounds good. If you mean displacing time sequence with a theme unfolding, that's common in novels. Displacing time with space, though—is it me? is it the city? is it congenital attention shifts turning into a rhythm that layers time?—several things at once, the all-at-once, so extension in space comes across more than time passage. What good it is, I have no idea. It seems accurate. A New York cop on horseback passing late at night along cobblestones between the two walkers in the first section of Actress in the House. The distance down to the street from the questionable helicopter with its rhythm at the opening of Lookout Cartridge—coupled presently with the plunge down the stopped escalator: Distances more than time.

TS: At the same time, many of your books develop a precise language, a vocabulary that the reader learns over the arc of the novel.

JM: The minister Archy Pelago (how does that name hold up late in A Smuggler's Bible?), a group of spread out islands, parts smuggled into spatial connections, perceptions, whatever (hate the word "whatever" unless it's called for out of this astonishing mixed language we have available to us here that I feel even more in New York)—mostly it's been mixed, even a little in Plus, which is a pretty severe vocabulary (why wouldn't it be, considering what it grows out of?).

TS: How would you describe your aesthetic?

JM: Space, you say. Field in me even back then in the '60s. An extent spread out. Is this decision-threatening for a character, a perceiver? But more, opening up the decision with this spread of possibility. Aiming. In the brief sentence, or the long, coastal sentence, neural, multiplying-thoughtful in that the questions don't quit (well, kids are told to quit asking questions, though they don't put up with that any more). Sentences physical, muscular—the body with its motives. It's what I am mixed up in and aim for in a sentence, which is sometimes a narrative in itself, changing course, does that make sense? To suggest what it is to be awkwardly alive, not done yet, and kinetic and ready—often an odd idiom that will turn away from the syntax, the sextant, and navigate on its own. It's about coming upon and finding—Brodkey more than DeLillo, at random, Sebald and Celine rather than Balzac. For me embodied in the bumpy, potholed field of our mixed language, foolish, free, domestic, consumer, technical, amorous, bop, science, lyric, politically absurd, the lewd. The abstract: I've had my say about it in a piece called "Socrates on the Beach." Abstract in later Stevens, Emerson, sometimes Melville, even in my experience as some of Andrew Chiappe's diction lecturing on Shakespeare at Columbia could be intimate, sudden, endless, looking in more than one direction though not, as in my vocab unpredictably slangly, I would hope never to be out of sync with direct and vernacular image—for example, in Dante. I don't have an aesthetic that wouldn't sound . . .

TS: Where do your stories come from?

JM: My stories begin from thing or word and they think of the most interesting event you could make up.

TS: More than any other contemporary novelist (except perhaps Richard Powers), you engage the bond between the event and the observer. In Actress and in Lookout Cartridge, in the Apollo essay and your 9/11 piece, your attention returns to the density of this connection.

JM: Bond is a nice warm word here—chilling too in Cordelia, who was in fact warm in the attention she gave her father's question. Bond between event and observer. Book reviews I try to write once in a while describe the book the best I can; so the reader gets an idea of the book. Occasionally I come across pieces about my books that help to show me what I'm doing. One of these is an essay by Yves Abrioux, about emotion and perception as motion and the potential for it in my fiction paralleled somewhat in Deleuze's analysis of the action image in film, and in contrasts between the predictable or integral and the less predictable dynamics in, for example, an action occurring between two people. I come back to a sort of family of people, of potentials, living together more or less inclining to connect, trying to dive out into things, into business and love and the field of accelerating loss without ever losing touch with home, parents, children, marriage—those questions and the terribly specific personalities you grow up surrounded by. But with me that's absorbed into a kind of writing you don't sum up as the anecdote of a birth or a misunderstanding, or a hobby or a job drama, even an obsession with recording everything: it seems to me like plotting it all in a moving potential space, the unpredictable family which is the family of its possible expressions, yet more a field (which was always there from the beginning in A Smuggler's Bible, with its crude gaps "we" had to bridge with another interior voice or commute among, like a local archipelago). And the family dispersed and called into question in city and country, in Hind's Kidnap. And as I've said here and there in some non-fictional pieces, a field of developing surprise which is the mind and parts of the body nearly congruent finding an action that is breaking apart or jumping gaps. Of sudden understanding, of breaks in the sequence at large, from the beginning, in the bridge—sections of A Smuggler's Bible and in the names of the 3 parts of Hind's Kidnap. The 9/11 essay begins with neighborhood, shock, my family, others, and finds its action in thinking about use and rebuilding. It's one of the better things I've written.

TS: For me, there's an expansiveness about your writing—a desire, a close attention, the bridges, hinges, and the sense of betweenness and becoming. Could you say more about this potential space?

JM: Beginnings seem always to be about the breakdown of knowing. Childbirth—"after all she was not so sure what had happened. . . ." Becca getting slugged on stage as seen by Daley: "A shock, that's all it was, in the darkened house." At the beginning of Lookout Cartridge, this incapacity to grasp expands, doesn't it?

Check my remarks on Giedion in "For the Love of Books." There's my quandary that I try to turn into action. Artistic completion versus what an old friend of mine in an essay on Milton's "At a Solemn Music" called the evidence of the writer's "chips and shavings" lying on the workroom floor, something like that.

TS: More concretely, much of your fiction revolves around Brooklyn Heights. How important is place to your work?

JM: Place is the outside in motion multiplying which is imagined and therefore inspiring and potential, also the sum and product of accidents. Brooklyn Heights, an enclave supposedly safe—whatever is alive and key-like and extended and connective about a place called Brooklyn Heights for the reader reading is the first thing, and it has next to nothing to do with a neighborhood whose skeleton you might still visit. A biographer told me The Letter Left to Me was a superb book about Brooklyn Heights. I think he missed the point as much as someone who wanted to know whether the event that begins that book really happened to me. Cities have obviously provoked me to remember, just as they indeed are rememberings. They are maps outside and inside and things can happen there which must be beyond my perception of them.

TS: Could you describe your writing process?

JM: A mass of notes and lists revised and revised, while also sentences get written down and phrases as I listen for a voice not quite single that could last through a whole narrative.

TS: Would you discuss the idea of abuse in Actress?

JM: The short story fragment or idea from which the novel developed had another title with "abuse" in it. I always had to find the fertile imbalance, the growth stuff in the abuse: not to turn away from the reality of the abuse—Becca's family, Daley's also—but to emphasize rebuilding of the life rather than victims and perpetrators. The misuse of people, the counterpoint of brothers, hers and his, the subtle poise of guilt against attention and need. I was risking political incorrectness.

TS: Do you have any feelings about being labeled as an "experimental" writer or as a writer of experimental fiction?

JM: "Experimental" in most publishing houses is a dismissive term. Therefore maybe counterproductive for the real enthusiasts and supporters to use. As with "difficult" so with "experimental," the burden should be on the user to identify what the word means exactly. Putting images together in a fresh or arresting way? (Check out the genuine American surrealism of Dow Mossman in the latter sections of The Stones of Summer.) Mixing up time sequence? Using free association?—but if so, association of what with what? Is The Waves "experimental"? You bet it is. Seeing what can be done with the real experience of perceiving. I, come to think of it, wrote a novel called Plus which is ABOUT an experiment. Controlled experiment which . . . well it gets out of control, becoming another experiment I suppose.

TS: Navigating these "fields of impinging informations" (Lookout Cartridge 465), the reader and the narrative consciousness are often pulled in multiple directions. In a recent essay on Jackson Pollack and Ray Johnson, William S. Wilson cites a line from Women and Men—"Nature, spied back through one of its own eyes"—to describe this link between the observer and the event. What interests you about these fields of dependent energies that emerge? How we perceive an event is a dynamic participatory process, isn't it?

JM: Though the sense of three or four things happening at once can be rendered in or by the reader's mind, simultaneous perceptions can be given in prose on the page only in a sequence (sometimes called linear), sentence upon sentence. Linear sequence on the page is what I the writer am stuck with but it is joined by the mind of the reader turning it into simultaneity. This doesn't mean the New Age "picnic" Harold Bloom describes, "to which the authors bring the words (or some of them anyway) and the readers bring the meanings" (The American Religion 184). It's like the observer bargaining with what he observes, or the thinker being part of what he thinks, thus a limit—the acknowledgment of which is "Nature spied back through one of its own eyes." In the trap or limit is our largeness. Am I interested only in how things happen? No, it is the constant, falling exchange between what we ought to do and what we can see happening almost out of control.

Family relations like the body hold the unseen vectors and abstractly measurable weathers that are as real as a father's regret expressed unsuccessfully to a son or the intimations of a sixth sense that a man in Actress in the House won't acknowledge in himself but readers will see. The structures of vagary. Freedoms we almost have. Why one brother, Daley, went to an imperial war. What the other brother, Wolf, absurdly gifted as a survivor, meant when he called Daley much more of a risk-taker than he himself: there is the whole story.

TS: What are you working on?

JM: A novel that comes from an earlier published book—certainly a risk. And a long thing called Voir Dire in progress since 1991. Also a text in collaboration with a composer. And an essay on water.

TS: What are you reading now? Are there any authors with whom you feel your work is connected?

JM: Reading people who think, or are trying to. Mostly non-fiction. U.S. history. And science and philosophy in constant snatches. At the moment (9/29), Svevo's novel Zeno's Conscience, the Weaver translation at last bringing me into a narrative uncanny in its swerves of intent, awful, banal, deep. I'm writing something about it because what I've read over the years in essays and introductions misses so much of Svevo's way, his peculiar suspenseful and surprising sequence, the infra structure, the actual writing. I read maps, worldwide earthquake bulletins, I read what I want to find out about. Government lies. Structural materials. All this can be used against me. I read newspapers. I read reviews which are sometimes about the reviewer pretty much. I write a few reviews a year and almost endlessly reread drafts of them to make sure they describe the book. I'm told it's a waste of time, but it all helps me learn to write.

Somewhere in me there's the employer whom I ask what is my job who answers, A little bit of everything.

Writers I feel my work is connected with? Melville, the Sir Thomas Browne Melville, the people at risk in their understandings. The Sir Thomas Browne Melville and the sometimes loaded-in information about the Pequod's work are often more interesting than the supposed adventure action of the Pequod's voyage; not Browne's melancholy comfort, however: Melville's doubt and dread and terrible readiness are the true text and are his thought. Proust: the people, the thought: not so much the involuntary memory idea at the end of "Overture" which is often spoken of and regularly misunderstood. Rather, the splendid, frank thinking meshed with the people.

Read more about Joseph McElroy at www.josephmcelroy.com.

Rain Taxi Online Edition, Fall 2003 | © Rain Taxi, Inc. 2003

An Interview with Brenda Hillman

by Sarah Rosenthal

Brenda Hillman occupies a unique position in American poetry. Her national reputation was established through books such as Fortress, Bright Existence, and Death Tractates: works firmly anchored in a lyrical-narrative tradition. With the publication of Loose Sugar and subsequent work, she began to explore postmodern poetic modes such as fragmentation and what she refers to in the following interview as "a more stretchy sense of 'I'." Given the often intense disagreements between poets and readers who love lyric ("accessible") poetry on the one hand, and those who ally themselves with postmodern ("difficult") work on the other, Hillman's ability to cross lines without, apparently, alienating old friends seems courageous and refreshing. How is she able to do it? Our talk revealed a poet who marries passionate convictions with a relaxed embrace of not-knowing as a fundamental aspect of human life. Perhaps this combination has enabled her surprising yet sure-footed move across an often rigid boundary within American poetics.

 

Sarah Rosenthal: I'd like to focus on your most recent book, Cascadia—starting at the end, with the series of poems about the California missions. There are poems like this throughout Cascadia which form a spine for the book; they are more airy than the other poems.

Brenda Hillman: Spare.

SR: Yes, spare. In your earlier work, especially Loose Sugar, there are tiny moments or fragments that seem to come from an interior, mystical place. Here, in the mission poems, those moments become the entire poem. In reading them, I don't quite want to say that all thought drops away, but they are very quiet and prayer-like to me. They make me feel joyful, even though there are words like "hurt," "pain," "danger," and "confusion" laced through them. And there are lines here and there that reinforce that seeming paradox. In "Birth of Syntax": "A blade of happiness cuts like free verse // A breath makes of each hurt a new religion"; in "Christ's Height": "a poet / burst with happiness." In "Half the Half-Nocturnes," which immediately follows the last mission poem in the book: "How did this existence deepen / and get lighter, disaster dreams confused // with hope like those of friars / carrying a saint's bed higher because / the mission's burning." It is so urgent, and yet there is joy, too-and an effort to acknowledge that strange collision.

BH: Thank you for starting with those because I think they are the hardest poems in the book. They seem to me to be about the mission/mission as a difficulty. The friars had a "mission" to go about carrying the word in a mistaken sort of way, which produced both beauty and terror. And our feelings about what they did are just as mixed as our feelings—as my feelings—about the mission of the artist.

Those poems were written during a difficult period in my life, and I decided I would just go around California and visit all 22 missions and look at the patterns on the walls. What you said about thought dropping away is accurate to the process as well; I started each poem by just sitting in a mission and meditating on the idea of pattern itself, beyond sense. The beauty of those wall-patterns had enchanted me from the first time I'd seen the missions, which was in the mid-'70s. In looking at the patterns on the mission walls, I felt that the people who had painted them were doing as much "God's work," you know, in big quotes—or the earth's work, or the mind's work, or all those slashed together—as the people who did the actual religious art; they were simply doing a more abstract version of keeping the making-spirit going. There is a particular beauty about the regularity of the way that an artist works in relation to a day. If we are making art, we somehow keep on in a daily, drastic and joyful continuing. How do you continue? That's your job: You get up in the morning, you let some energy get through you somehow, and you put the paint on the wall. That's how it gets there.

You are right to connect the mission poems to the fragment stuff in Loose Sugar. They're also connected to the sequence called "Twelve Dawns" at the beginning of Bright Existence, particularly the one called "The Servant," which says, "—So you whispered to the soul Rise up! / but the soul was not ready. // —Get up! It's our turn! But that part of the soul / stayed still. So you checked the list // of those who existed." There's a continuation between the idea of soul, and abstraction and geometry, and being at work in the daily, and color—and more specifically, doodling in church and the materiality of language. When I was visiting the missions and sitting there in these little niches, one of the things I thought a lot was, church can be so boring if you don't expand on the predictable. I had to go to church a lot when I was a kid. You know, you sit there and you just, uurrr . . . so I would doodle a lot as a child. And not well. Not good doodles, just really blunt stupid doodles because I can't draw.

SR: I know from Loose Sugar and from some of your interviews that you were raised in a very rigorous Baptist form. I got the feeling that the poems were in part enacting the childlike experience of being in church, including an awareness that you're supposed to be praying but that you are aware of others' presence.

BH: I wanted to open my eyes to look at the adults and see if their eyes were open. But I couldn't because I was afraid. So I peeked a tiny bit. Prayer, like poetry, is best when the singular goes toward the collective.

SR: Did you have any instinct of praying when you were a child? Were you spiritual, or was it just sort of forced on you?

BH: Oh, it was a complete mess. So I made up my own little church, in books and in the desert dirt. It's a fairly American, Emersonian notion of spirit in nature and word.

SR: The light is within.

BH: Yes, it's pure.

SR: It ties in so well with your interest in Gnosticism in that sense.

BH: Baptists are Gnostics, basically. They are supposed to follow a little antinomian thread. They espouse the privacy of one's relationship to the constructed universe, which isn't controlled by authority, but which is populated by other spirits. That really appealed to me. I also love the business of visitations. If it had been less morally rigid, it wouldn't have been so onerous. What appealed to me was the investigation into the collective body of received images.

SR: I wanted to look with you at the book's title poem. In "Cascadia," there are faint words sprinkled down the left-hand column: notational details about the road trip to the missions, including, for example, the names of all the tacky hotels you stayed at. I loved "Pre-Naugahyde chair."

BH: Do you know the kind? It was on its way to being Naugahyde, as if maybe they hadn't invented Naugahyde yet.

SR: And then there is "post-Naugahyde truth," and finally we get to "true Naugahyde."

BH: I figured we better sort of map out a Naugahyde fantasy....

SR: The faint lettering of these marginal notes seems like a geologic gesture: The left-hand part is the part that is submerged, in the way that at one point much of California lay beneath the ocean. There was also a sense of geologic slippage to me in the way that the poem's lines brought in so many different kinds of matter, sometimes jarring and always evocative interrelationships between them. It is a complex, rigorous poem, which at the same time has a lot of freedom and motion and slippage built into it, and the images and ideas are layered and re-layered, in lines that end up reminding me of rock strata. I was so taken by the lines "And what of the unknown where / the inexhaustible plays against form." That play in the meaning of the enjambed "where," between destination/place/noun in the first line, and unknown entity/point of passage/preposition in the second line, very much enacts the idea of the inexhaustible playing against form. In fact, the lines remind me of the Blanchot quote which serves as the volume's epigram, and which talks about "the force of the undetermined and ... the pure violence of being from which nothing can be made." The quote goes on to say that the artist's job is to provide form and boundary in some way, but without tamping down this original chaotic energy.

BH: It's a question that is so upsetting right now. I was talking to Kathleen Fraser a while ago about the opening up of form in the last 20 years, almost to the point of destroying the boundaries of the poem. It is the artist's job to make form. Not even to make it, but to allow it. Allow form. And all artists have a different relationship to it, and a different philosophy of it. I worked on this poem for eight months; it's very carefully structured. But I wanted it to be boundaryless in a way: It's not punctuated, and I wanted it to go back and forth within itself and within time. I thought, "Well, you can have both things: structure and boundarylessness." And in fact I think that when you are trying to open up a territory—in this case I was working with a desire to open the lyric—you have to be greedy, in that you want more than you can do. And you're always bound to fail.

SR: You're trying to let error in a certain kind of a way, but you don't want error to take over the poem.

BH: I wanted every line to be memorable. Also, I wanted to get at and challenge the idea—not a central idea, because the poem doesn't really have a center—Aristotle's idea of change: that you can tell where something is going because of where it ends up. Final cause, or something like that—which is really kind of an anti-divine notion, and which I love as a philosophy of living. It's sort of like, "I'm not sure where I am going, but I can tell it was my fate to be there because that's where I ended up."

SR: You have been thinking about this problem of form and boundaries in a head-on way for a long time. It's a big theme in Bright Existence, in poems like "March Dawn," where you write, "everything has a border doesn't it? the edge where light cannot get in // until joy knows the original wound." Or in "Holding On," which I read as about your relationship with your daughter: "wanted to cling to you . . . / . . . so we won't / have to address this problem of the separate you-and-me, / of outer and inner." The word "merge" appears several times in Cascadia, as well as the notion of skin as an image of boundary-skin, which strikes me as an extremely tender, vulnerable container and divider. Your work addresses the question of form and boundaries not just in poetry, but in being, in matter. In "Recycling Center" you write, "[we] could tell by the tilt of one / bottle against the next that it's difficult / to be singular, to have identity, to keep / an outline safe in the terrors of space." In "Sorrow of Matter": "suffering invented shape." You seem to be in a long-term process of puzzling out this question, wanting to push the limits of form in the context of a lot of contemporary thinking, while also acknowledging the necessity of form.

BH: Right—the necessity of form and also how it determines so much. I think about the "metaphysical" and scientific aspects of form—for example, just the business of getting shapes made, the idea of a constructed fragment of consciousness in a universe based on change. I also think about the relationship between an individual and the collective. The latter impacts a lot of my thinking about poetry right now. There seem to be a lot of poetry collaborations in the Bay Area right now, and not just collaborations with others but also dialogic forms within single-author texts. So the boundaries have loosened in that sense. That said, I still have the feeling that the task of artists is always going to be a matter of a seeking that is intense and is about a soul at work—"soul" being another term for the seeking of a mind. Boundary issues impact so much of that work: the ideas of shape in a piece of art, your relationship to tradition, how much you can risk, and your relationship to the mysterious and to your future readers—whether you want to call that divine or human, nature or artifice. And language subverts any of our efforts to make boundaries. Our very greatest human thing—which is language to me—musicians would say it's music, but I think it's language-our very greatest human thing is wild. Uncontrollable. It is impossible to put boundaries on your words, even if you make a poem. Each word is a maze. So you are full of desire to make a memorable thing and have the form be very dictated by some way that it has to be. But the poem itself is going to undo that intention. It's almost like you're knitting a sweater and something is unraveling it on the other end. You know what I mean? In this way, it is very strange.

So the idea of boundarylessness sits uncomfortably with the idea of form. I am so conscious of formal technique, and I never want the process and the poem to be so loose that it will just be dropping from a journal accidentally. I would really like the work to go on being extremely inventive in ways that seem process-oriented, but never formless.

SR: The notions of the individual and the singular seem to be part and parcel of the problem of territoriality. Your work asks questions about these concepts without providing closed answers. In "The Shirley Poem" in Part VII, you write, "Nobody works a claim alone. In / 1851 law arrives; government hasn't yet / been invented. Forty feet around a / claim. The need to be unique / has mostly made us miserable." These lines get at the pressure in our society to stake claims on all kinds of territory, both geographic and psychic. I'm led to think about originality, and the yearning of the artist to be original. In that context I thought it was interesting that this book feels much less directly autobiographical than much of your earlier work. There's that mysterious, magical phrase/fragment/poem in Cascadia, "(enter: The 'we'-)," and I get the sense that "the we" is entering into your work more than ever. I wonder if that is a result of—or perhaps accompanied by—a shift in your ideas about the role of the artist and what you want to accomplish with your art.

BH: Yes, absolutely. The lyric that is also social. Don't you think that this moment in poetry is so interesting because there are so many interesting ideas about subjectivity and the personal? It really does seem less terrifying to write from a form of experience that's not so narrowly construed. There's something about the "I" that is stretchy now; I think of the work of poets like Alice Notley and others. There are so many different ways of being personal. Like Michael Palmer's "I Do Not Speak English." Who's writing in that poem? It's not a persona, it's not just a "Michael;" it's some statement that goes down a long tunnel of possibility. That much more stretchy sense of "I" really interests me, but one that doesn't lose the depth and feeling tones. Because it's very much the case that at a certain point whatever you think of as the ego project, it's not going to work out. You come to that in art. You can't just stick with that. It doesn't work out in your life either, if you're bound up with ego.

The ego is always worried about its territoriality. In writing Cascadia, there was the notion of geology as mind, mind as geology. There aren't that many ideas. I was thinking about this when I wrote "The Shirley Poem." I had been at several conferences and was thinking about how there's no such thing as really inventing something that hasn't been invented, and I was particularly distressed and intrigued by the idea that people need to lay claim to originality. The fact is that a lot of experimental contemporary writing comes out of Baudelaire, Rimbaud, and Mallarmé, and of course Stein. The forms in experimental writing come from a lot of different sources. I would never want to say to somebody, You stole my work—unless they actually took my words, which has actually happened on a couple of occasions, without citation to that effect. But people don't own ways of writing, and so it seemed important to kind of get that notion into the world. There are original moments in art, as in everything. But nobody owns those.

SR: But don't you think that is part of the careerism of art? Everybody is their own little company in a way, and that infiltrates into our consciousness. We're all spiritual capitalists in a certain way. It's very hard, I think, to live in a society that's so permeated by these ideas and keep them from entering your artistic process and your artistic thinking.

BH: Well, one thing I find particularly distressing for young writers is the idea that everyone has to come up with something. I mean, I think poems come from other poems. They come from lots of different places, and each mind cannot help but contribute. And this connects also with the idea of the earth, too: earth as body, earth as mind. Our language is circular. In reading geology texts—and of course when I wrote about geology in Cascadia, I messed up hugely and re-did my geology—I saw that there is a conveyor belt under the earth and that one grain of sand takes 200 million years to move from the middle of the Pacific to our coast and then go under and back. And if you actually traced the grain of sand it would take 200 million years, so it's all kind of a long process and words start to participate in a long otherness. And we're talking about language that's being recycled in poetry maybe every couple of hundred years—the whole thing gets remade. And that's cool, that you can re-use Keats. For me, the big inspiration behind the Mission poems was George Herbert. I love "The Altar" and "Easter Wings," his shapely poems. I always thought those were so cool. And I thought, I want to write a girl version of that, with lace around it. And I know that people borrowed things in Death Tractates over and over. So the idea of originality is challenging, and how we have to let go of ego to make art, while respecting that there are huge and profound aesthetic differences in a culture of literature as various as ours.

SR: In "Shirley" Part VIII, Shirley, who's a pioneer doctor's wife who travels to the mines with her husband, writes in a letter: "I have the vague / idea that I hooked that butterfly comparison from somebody. / If so, I beg the injured / person's pardon, and he or she / may have a hundred of mine / to pay for." Then there's a parenthetical that says, "(italics hers.)" And the key part to me is that the parenthetical is itself in italics, so that "her" becomes a completely slippery entity. Whose italics? It's a fine-tuned gesture that gets at this ownership/originality issue. Throughout your work, there are these precise gestures that enact what you are saying. For example, in "Shared Custody," where the daughter goes back and forth between parents like Persephone, the daughter "makes / a roof with her goodbye: //bye\\ mom." In this small typographical moment there is a complex awareness of the ways a child must negotiate her feelings for her divorced parents. I think of Dickinson's ability to funnel big ideas through small yet potent gestures.

BH: Great question! There's something about that girlish refuser that is in my work all the way back to Fortress, but it really started with Death Tractates, with the "what" voice that comes in. And that came from working with André Breton's notion of letting the pen slip so that everything in the margins of the poems starts entering. I've always done a lot of composition using trance methods. There were always unexplainable voices that would come in. I know "voice" is supposed to be a dirty word, and I never quite figured out why. Have you?

SR: There's the idea that something different happens on the page than happens in speech.

BH: But I can't get why one would want to eliminate the trace of a spoken thought in the poem. There are so many moments in which the human "voice" comes in, in Stein's "Lifting Belly," say, or in Ashbery, whose work I love. It isn't not writerly. It always seemed to me that one of the great things about poetry was when you would hear writing itself, some very specific quality of life that was only possible in that particular expression. There's something really good about the breakdown of the notion of the ego and the accompanying opening up of the page that has come about through literary theory. It does seem to me crucial that we keep in mind that poetry is about states of mind, and about people going through things as selves and as collectives in relation to the earth, in relation to being alive, in relation to becoming. It is impossible for me to enjoy poetry if there is no sense of intense experience. The old autobiographical narrative isn't necessarily going to cut it every time. Yet it seems to me crucial to have a sense that somebody went through something, or the powerful thought of the poem as a replica of that.

So I hope that whatever experiment and opening and wildness and exploration the poem has to go through—and I do mean the poem because I feel like I am in its hands when I'm writing—that it keeps human experience recognizable.

SR: I wanted to talk about gold, which is a term you explore in a number of ways that both intersect and conflict. You have an ongoing interest in alchemy and the making of gold as an alchemical process, which seems to have to do with the solitary creative process. In Cascadia, you also explore gold as money, and you look at the political, economic and environmental consequences of our historical relationship to gold, and the way gold has been replaced by other means of exchange. The poem "Hydraulic Mining Survey" looks at how, a short time ago, we were tearing apart the earth to get gold, and it was a hard process, as if the earth didn't want to yield this metal to us: "Gold just didn't want to."

BH: The earth had it, and kept it.

SR: And only a little while later, we are all using Visa and MasterCard anyway—yet we still live with these deserted mines.

BH: The whole idea of the rape of the earth for gold became interesting to me when I went with Gary Snyder and some other people to look at the hydraulic mines. It must have been almost ten years ago. We just went on a little outing to look at the mountains. And it was quite shocking to see the scars of hydraulic mining still there. It had been a hundred years, and there's no mountain now. For me, the idea that we went to that much work to find gold connected with my interest, which I explored in the central section of Loose Sugar, in alchemy as an idea of spiritual process: trying to find the gold of the spirit in a metaphorical sense. And that being impossible, because all mental processes are circular. You don't get to the gold. You don't get to make it. So gold is desirable and elusive at the same time. And now, as a society, we've reached the point where not even paper money stands for gold in the Treasury. Instead, plastic stands for paper money, which stands for gold, which stands for value. It is just so removed, and money itself is somewhat horrifying. It's almost as if gold has lost its value. Who knows what's worth something? I was talking to a friend the other day, who was talking to a mutual friend, a trader, who trades in the thing that comes right after the future of pork bellies. I don't even know what it is called. It's like the wash, the afterwash, the high tide or something. When I started Cascadia, the boom was still on. And I thought, people make so much money off imaginary value, and it's going to crash. And how much it is taking out of somebody else?

Of course, there's nothing you can do about it. People will go on hoarding it until the end of time. But it's been very upsetting to watch the boom and then the crash that's based on unreal value. It hasn't really crashed too much around our ears, but there is still something extremely horrifying about things like conglomerate ownerships.

SR: In a sense, conglomerate ownerships represent a highly disturbing version of your phrase, "enter the we."

BH: Exactly, and one that's got nothing to do with the earth and the gold miner's 40 feet around a claim. When I was starting to write Cascadia, I read a book called The Gift by Marcel Mauss. I had already read Lewis Hyde's book called The Gift, and I think his ideas overlap with those of Mauss. The book describes how value should work, or does work, in a culture of art. The gift I give you actually has spirit value in it from its place of origin--the forest, or the mine, or wherever it's from. It has the weight of its history in it. In today's culture, this idea of the gift has totally lost spiritual value. Right now, it's Christmas season; you just order things from Amazon and J Crew and charge them to your Mastercard. Or look at these poor dioxined apples here: They are called Gee Whiz and they are from something.com and they have their little stickers and they are sprayed. No spirit value passed along.

SR: Isn't this classic Marxism, the alienation between the maker and the product, and between the maker and the user of the object? And the use of money, which is an abstraction—there's no more bartering. This discussion also ties indirectly into the concern you raise in Loose Sugar about feeling like time has sped up, feeling like you're always rushing. That is where a lot of this minimizing of the meaning of objects comes in—we don't feel we have the time any more to sit and make personal gifts for our friends at Christmas, for example.

BH: I'm not this year, but—not to get too Joni Mitchell about it—I'm going to, next year, or the year after. The challenge is to be able to accommodate email and gardening and plastic at the same time—to keep a sense of how things give value to life.

SR: Your work strikes me as profoundly spiritual—spiritual in the sense that the more one is aware of death and the pressing mystery of nonbeing—like when you spoke earlier about the sense of nonbeing crowding under the doorframe—the more one wants to invest matter with meaning. One becomes concerned with the meaning of our precious time here in relation to the constant fact of nonbeing.

BH: And the fact that everything is constant change.

SR: There's a great line to that effect at the end of "Cascadia."

BH: Oh, "You want to or you don't / want to change but you'll change." Yes, at the time of writing that, I was having some health issues; it was a very hard time in my personal life. That's the private undercurrent of those words. But it did have to do with acknowledging that many of us don't want to admit that we are all about change and decay and falling apart.

I also see spirit as very much connected to language. The other day I was walking into Cody's and I saw a woman walking along the opposite way, wearing a T-shirt on that said, "I only do what the voices tell me to do." I think there is some continuum between language and spirit that is absolute and amazing. There's an essay by Walter Benjamin that really helped my thinking about this, even though I have no idea what the essay is saying; it's like a really strange poem. It's called "On Language as Such and on the Language of Man." It's about how we can't get away from meaning and yet we don't know what it is, but there's something about language and the way language relates to the primal that precedes experience and precedes words but is only purely enacted by them. So the language of God is much bigger than words. That made me really think about the connection between spirit and language. In one sense, I don't believe in pure spirit outside of culture, but I do think there are mysteries that we don't know through culture, and in that way it is not all about being human. So that's a contradiction, and I suppose that makes me weird in a way that is not cool, but I don't care. There's something about the absolute need to insist that every bit of human understanding is a closed system that I don't like. When you're talking to a rock, that is not about human culture; it is about this rock that's going to be here for a long time. There's a reality outside of ourselves. Stevens and Wittgenstein say it is unknowable and that's true; we don't know it; we can't know it. All we can really know is human culture. And to risk the relation to the non-human is a nonsense I need to participate in.

SR:I wanted to ask you about the last lines of "El Niño Orgonon": "Weather taught / you to write funny. When it stops / being wrecked, we'll write normally." You expressed a similar sentiment in your interview with Tod Marshall (Denver Quarterly, Winter 2000) where you said, "I sometimes think sentences have to be screwed up in exactly the same way as we've screwed up the weather." In some ways that feels so accurate to me: The environmental crisis is so all-encompassing that it very well might be inextricably tied up with why we might write things that don't make logical sense. At the same time, it seems it is always the job of poetry to move in a non-rational way, even in a joyfully reclaimed, Edenic world. Also, some might say there is a joy, as in the jouissance the French feminists speak of, in disordering syntax. And then there is the whole question of who ordered the syntax as it is ordered anyway, and to what end.

BH: That's a great point, and asyntactic sentences have been around for a long time as literary devices, for lots of reasons, including the modernist idea that alienation is where we are, so we need to represent ourselves as alienated from our environment in order to be most courageous and because that's how modern cities are. Gertrude Stein's polysyntax is about abutting states of mind against each other in a Cubist way, and her work is the source for a lot of the polysyntax in language-poetry and in the feminist lyric that accompanied the opening of the poem that I've been so involved with. Syntax scrambling is not only political—as you say, it's also about joy. And it's also about the idea from Russian formalism, that the purpose of literature is to alienate us—to make us uncomfortable, for good reasons. Alienation in that sense not being bad, but just separating us from the normal so that we stumble across something we haven't seen before and we see it for the first time. In that particular poem I say that I'm screwing up these sentences because we screwed up the world. I wrote that poem during the scary couple of winters of '92 and '93. We had those terrible storms and I just kept thinking, This is not right; we have got too much water coming down. They say it's this little boy off in the Pacific spinning around, but it's not; it's a mess.

SR: So you didn't mean that in a reductive way; you meant that as one of the many reasons to mess with syntax and sentences.

BH: Yes, one of the many. Since Mallarmé and before, lots of people have been rethinking the sentence in lots of different ways. But I do think there is something different about connecting it with the weather getting screwed up, and with dioxin and other environmental atrocities. And I am probably going to go in that direction somewhat in the next book too, because I feel very concerned about these issues. I was talking with my friend Chris Sindt about the challenge of speaking as a modernist or postmodernist poet about environmental issues, because there's so much sentimentality associated with environmental and "nature writing." For many writers, words don't have anything to do with their signified. One of my friends noted he was really disappointed to see an actual growing tree after knowing only the name of this particular kind of tree, because of course the relationship is arbitrary. I find it challenging to figure out what languages does do to reality.

SR: I see Cascadia precisely as taking on these issues in a complex way so that they're connected with issues about language and about writing and about multi-layered states of consciousness.

BH: My approach is not going to necessarily make a huge hit with the John Muir crowd, but I feel like it is nature writing in the best sense to think the whole idea of nature must be reconceived, and I do feel that you can be a postmodernist and query the very concepts of "nature." What is it mean to have a nature, exactly? It's a long way from me to the pine tree out the window. But there's still a pine tree out the window, even though it's a something else in Japanese.

SR: I'd like to end by asking you about your relationship to the Bay Area and to the notion of poetic community, and about whether those relationships overlap for you. Here we are looking at a book called Cascadia, which is a word for an ancient land form before California, where you have lived and taught and written and raised a child for a number of years. Cascadia seems to dig into this particular place, perhaps in one sense as an example of place, and perhaps also simply as the location you know best. In what sense is the Bay Area a writing community for you? Has your relationship to the Bay Area as a poetic community changed over time, as your own allegiance has shifted from a more narrative to a more "experimental" mode?

BH: I think of myself as using the idea of California in my work since Fortress; maybe a little less in Loose Sugar, but still it comes in. Certainly in Bright Existence, Death Tractates and Cascadia it is important to think as a California writer about many aspects of California—and now particularly Northern California—as a mode for the universal. I'm never just thinking of it as itself; I'm always trying to think about being on earth, being in the universe. I think of this book as the first in a tetralogy, actually, of earth, air, fire and water. I don't know if I will do it or not, but that's my idea. In terms of California as a geologic phenomenon, I'm interested in the fact that Cascadia in its original land form comprised the entire west of North America. That land form actually subducted in and became a whole bunch of the western form. California didn't exist at one time, and then when Cascadia subducted and became California, it's almost as if it had to sacrifice itself for us. So I was interested in that geological idea of merging—the land being one thing and then becoming another.

That ties into an idea of poetic community that appeals to me. When I first got here in the mid-'70s, I was fresh from Iowa and I had very specific ideas of what poetry was, mostly. My first poetry friend here was Patricia Dienstfrey, with whom I've just edited a book of essays by thirty-two poets on the intersection of motherhood and poetics called The Grand Permission. She was involved in women's poetry in way that interested me, and the idea that poetry could accommodate process and uncertainty and show its own evolution was new. Since the '80s, these ideas are much more common, because of deconstruction and all. The Bay Area is also a very exciting place to be a poet right now because there is a growing collaborative spirit. I know a lot of people have to make their living from teaching, and that means you have to compete for certain things, and it's hard to get published. But there's a real acceptance of a lot of different kinds of poetry. And you see a great deal of openness about women's writing, an openness I ascribe to work that was done by a number of people, among them Kathleen Fraser, Frances Jaffer, the editors of Kelsey Street Press, and others. But the main thing that has interested me in the Bay Area for three decades is that it's a community in which writers can feel comfortable exploring the parameters of contemporary idioms, and there are plenty of venues to read your poetry, even if you don't have books out. And I am completely excited about it. It is still really hard to be a poet and there's not a great deal of acceptance of poetry "out there" in the culture. It is still not reviewed much in the New York Times or the big literary magazines. But it's a lot easier to be a poet today in the Bay Area. Now people are able to honor aesthetic differences and recognize that an art grows as much from transgressions as from positions. I think that makes it more interesting. Don't you?

Visit Brenda Hillman's website at www.rancho-loco-press.com/brenda_hillman/

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